It’s a Singapore today top story with Daniel Martin.

Daniel Martin: You’ve seen the machines around. The Beverage Container Return scheme kicked in as of 1^st April. Now, of course, not everybody’s got a chance to use it. I explained in many interviews leading up to this how there’s going to be this interim period where there are going to be some beverages on the shelves that do not have the stickers or the QR code that needs to be scanned and so on.

But the idea is, you know, prepackaged plastics and metal beverage containers, between 150 ml and 3000 ml are part of the scheme, and you’re going to get a refund back if you scan and return at these return points that are bright, well, not bright blue. It’s like a nice sky-blue colour. I’ve seen them at the supermarkets, always around there, and they’re going to be in easy access to a lot of people.

There are more than 1,000 reverse vending machines rolled out across housing estate, supermarkets and public spaces. But how does it actually work in practice, and how does it compare to maybe other return schemes that exist around the world?

We’re very pleased to welcome back to the show Remi Cesaro, who is Founder and Executive Director of Zero Waste City. It’s a consulting business specialised in waste reduction for commercial and industrial facilities.

Remi, I appreciate you coming on and talking to us once again. Thank you for being here. Now, I know you haven’t had a chance personally to use it yet. It’s only the 2^nd of April as of this interview. I get it. I get it. But I’m curious to see your views in terms of the machines and the devices, and how the system would compare maybe to some others you’ve tried elsewhere in the world.

What is the fundamental issue here? What is happening in that machine that you’re returning to? Is it just a collection point? Is it crushing it? Is it starting the recycling process? What exactly is working here?

Remi Cesaro: Good evening, Daniel and good evening, everyone. So, the reverse vending machine is definitely a bit more than a simple collection point or collection device. The primary…One of the primary purpose of the reverse mining machine is to be the gateway to a proper working scheme. The one of the key things that the RVM, the reverse vending machine, does, is to verify that any container that goes inside the machine is indeed eligible for the return of the deposit.

Daniel Martin: Ah, so, what is it looking out for?

Remi Cesaro: So basically, every time you will insert a beverage container, the first thing that the machine will do is to look for the barcode. The RVM will basically check its database to verify that the barcode of the product you put in it is actually registered in the system. A second thing you will check is the quality of the bottle. If…the bottle must be in full shape and it must be empty, if ever there’s any liquid left inside the bottle, then the machine will reject the bottle. And similarly, if the machine cannot read the barcode because it’s damaged or because the bottle has been flattened, again, the machine will reject the bottle, and that will ensure that there is no contamination going inside the reverse vending machine, and therefore the recycling stream afterward.

Daniel Martin: That’s an important point, because what a lot of people don’t realise is, if there are contaminations or contaminants, it actually means that that particular item, or even that batch of items, will not be able to be recycled, and that just basically goes against the purpose. What is the point? You might have ruined the entire batch in some cases as well. This has been a pain point for the recycling process around the world?

Remi Cesaro: It has been everywhere. So, you have to realise that when you do recycling, you are taking a type of material and bringing it back to a usable form. But if the material you’re putting in to recycle is contaminated, the quality of the output will also be downgraded, and therefore you cannot recycle as well. Therefore, the best quality of input you have, the best quality of output you will get from the recycling process.

Daniel Martin: Which is, at the end of the day, what we all want, which is you’ve put in the effort to go to the machine and do your part and remember to be a part of it. Let’s just make sure that the end result happens, which is that the recycling can happen and it’s not affected. So okay, so obviously, I want to pick out two key points. Obviously, like you said, the key issue is, you know, make sure that nobody’s trying to sneak and steal money, like they bought a bottle in Malaysia, and they try and recycling it here, that kind of thing. So that’s one thing, looking after the QR code. The not flattening, I want to deal with in a second, but this idea of making sure it’s liquid free. So we’ve got to change our practice then, because our current system, that a lot of us do is like, Hey, you’re thirsty, pop into the convenience store, grab a drink, drink, drink, drink while you’re walking, going to the office or whatever, and then, you know, put it in the bin before you head upstairs. Regardless of whether or not it’s dry, it might still be wet on the side. So, this means you can’t do that anymore. If you’ve bought on the go, you’re going to have to go, I don’t know, go home, rinse it out and hang it upside down to dry before you can put it in that machine.

Remi Cesaro: Oh, no. You don’t need to go that far. In reality, as long as it’s empty, there’s no like, a heavy liquid left inside, it will be acceptable. If there’s still some drops inside the bottle, it will be accepted. So, you don’t need to completely dry a container before to return it.

Daniel Martin: Okay, good. Because I wonder whether we’d start another problem, where people would just be like, accumulating the bottles at home, waiting to clean them before bringing them to the reverse vending machine.

Remi Cesaro: Yeah, effectively, in the scenario you’re describing just now, you can still actually do it. So, purchase your bottle, walk to the office, drink the container, and when it’s empty, you can actually return the bottle into the machine before to actually go back to the office. It’s actually possible.

Daniel Martin: And also, like the on-the-go experience, is definitely still possible. Okay, good. What do you think so far about the design, the look, the feel? It’s in supermarkets. We know that containers that are metal or plastic will be accepted between 150 ml to 3000 ml. I’ve seen a couple. I’ve explored, taken photos. It’s interesting. I like this new aspect of Singapore recycling. What’s your first hot take on it?

Remi Cesaro: Well, I mean, the design of the machine is consistent with design of similar machines around the world. It’s actually a very simple [design] in a way. You have one opening for the return of the bottles, a screen to guide you in the process, and different system to allow you for the payment of the deposit value. Now the design has been made in a way that is consistent across Singapore, so they make it like more easily recognisable wherever you’re in Singapore, and it’s also located in places which are as common as possible for consumers.

Daniel Martin: What do you think about the capacity of it? My worry is it’s like a vending machine size, is what I’d say. Could over capacity be reached very easily? In the past, when we’ve had examples of this, maybe 10 years, 20 years ago, I remember there were some recycling machines where you could return and get $1 back, that kind of thing. There became a little bit of a social issue where a lot of people would accumulate or pick up plastic bottles from the bins and try and accumulate and then return, like a whole bunch at one time. And this sometimes led to clogging up of the machines, or the machines going out of service for a little while. What do you think about the capacity, the size, the ability for it to cope with capacity?

Remi Cesaro: That’s something we will have to see, to check and see effectively. It is very likely that, yes, there will be scenarios in the coming weeks or months where some people may experience situation where the RVM is actually full, in which case it cannot return containers. Now, what’s happening here, there are multiple things…

Daniel Martin: My worry is, when that happens, are they just, you know, okay, in the bin, you go like, then, what a waste, right? It was a wasted opportunity.

Remi Cesaro: Oh, yes. Now, if you are discarding the bottle into the general waste bin or the recycling bin, you are effectively forfeiting deposit value, so there’s actually an incentive for you to keep those bottles, to return them at a different point or later in the day.

Daniel Martin: Yeah. Let’s see whether human behaviour can change with this kind of system, and whether technology can help motivate green initiatives and recycling efforts as well. We’ve got some user feedback. Our news team went on the ground. Our CNA news team and journalists, and we heard back from some of our Singaporeans who have just been exposed to this option for the first time.

Interviewee 1: For the elderly, maybe the logo is very small, or the can is too small, then they can’t really see properly. I just hope that, you know, the logo will be slightly bigger and easily detectable. Sometimes, you know, like your age catching up that we didn’t pay attention on it, then, you know, people will charge you extra 10 cents, but it’s not recycling at all.

Daniel Martin: Ah, okay, other pain points when you’ve seen roll ups like this happen around the world. Remi, are these some of the key points that people are looking at as well? How user friendly are we? Are we going to be taking advantage of by errant retailers? Am I going to get my money back? Is the code too small? These kinds of pain points can be worked out, right? It’s not going to be solved immediately on day one.

Remi Cesaro: That’s right. And actually, we have to expect quite a few frustrating situations over the next six months. So just to remind…as a reminder, so the scheme is officially started yesterday, first of April, and we have, right now, a six-month transition period whereby producers of beverage containers are going to be clearing all stocks and to replace them with containers that are all compliant with the BCRS.

As a result, when you’re purchasing bottles right now in supermarkets, it’s very likely you are still going to find mostly containers that do not have the deposit return mark, and as a result, you are not going to pay the deposit fee as well. But it also means that you’re going to have situation where you have a bit of a mix of bottles which have deposit scheme and which one don’t. You’re going to end up with people going to the reverse vending machine and putting containers. And the machine will systematically tell you, Oh, this one doesn’t have the barcode or doesn’t have the deposit mark, and therefore you cannot return it. So, there will definitely be a few frustrating situations like this. But as time goes, as all stocks are being cleared, this will appear less and less

Daniel Martin: Yes, as we get used to it, as we change human behaviour. In fact, that’s the point that I want to discuss with you right now, as you’ve seen things like this roll out, and you guys are a consulting business in waste reduction for commercial and industrial properties. So have you seen that technology and innovation and approaches like this can change human behaviour and result in the goal, which is encouraging a more sustainable development in terms of recycling and ecosystem.

Remi Cesaro: Yes. So the BCRs and similar return schemes around the world are a very targeted form of extended producer responsibility framework, and so it really puts a highlight onto separate product to make sure that they are collected in a very dedicated waste collection stream for recycling and for all the schemes which have been correctly designed around the world, we have seen and achieve extremely high return rate of such containers. One of the best deposit return schemes around the world is considered to be Germany, which is able to claim a 98% return rate on beverage containers.

Daniel Martin: That is tremendous. On what kind of containers?

Remi Cesaro: Similarly, like beverage containers, plastic bottles, aluminium cans.

Daniel Martin: 90% tremendous. And technology helped with that return scheme, primarily?

Remi Cesaro: Oh, the technology is definitely one of the tools that enable such success. In the case of Germany, one of the key factors as well, is the value of the deposit mark, which is 20 cents euros, so approximately like 30 cents Singapore per container. So, it has a really, really high incentive to make sure that every single container gets recovered and returned to the scheme.

Daniel Martin: But still, 90% recovery rate. That means 98% of all beverage containers that were manufactured get recycled. That’s significant.

Remi Cesaro: Exactly.

Daniel Martin: Okay, so technology can potentially play a part. But of course, the higher value that they had been a big contributing factor as well. So, 20-euro cents to them, I don’t know the conversion rate, but could be like 40 cents Singapore, maybe, versus our 10 cents. I’m looking forward to see how this rolls out and how people change their behaviours as well. What do you think is the mistake that you don’t want people to do before approaching one of these machines? What’s a common mistake?

Remi Cesaro: I did mention it a bit earlier, but the common mistake we have seen in the past, in other schemes are people accumulating containers, flattening it or crushing them to collect them as much as possible, and return them in one go.

Daniel Martin: Also, we think we’re doing our recycle…we’re flattening, we’re taking up less space in the dump if we do that.

Remi Cesaro: And there are some stories like this, like in Australia, when the new scheme was implemented in New South Wales, there was a story of an individual who collected thousands of aluminium cans.

Daniel Martin: Wow.

Remi Cesaro: But crushed them at home to collect as many as possible, and when he returned it, he was told that, oh, no, you cannot return it because…your cans have been crushed, and we cannot read the barcode.

Daniel Martin: So, it’s a functional issue. It’s not that crushing is bad and it’s not a good thing, but it’s just that because we can’t see the barcode or the QR code.

Remi Cesaro: Exactly. So, the crushing will typically happen by the machine that it will crush the containers to save space and collect as much as possible, but it definitely should not be done by the consumer beforehand. Yes.

Daniel Martin: Good tip. Let’s bear that in mind, everybody. Remi, before I let you go, a listener just WhatsApp across and says, “Why do we have to do this when everything is incinerated in Singapore at the end of the day?” Okay, so famously, we have an incineration process for our waste. But our listener is saying like, why? Obviously, besides the money and…the 10-cent incentive, which is being rolled out right now, what is your quick response to that? What would you say to that?

Remi Cesaro: All right, in terms…okay, there’s a huge, absolutely, huge benefit carbon emission wise, to recycle plastic and especially aluminium, compared to incinerating it. So, for every tonne of aluminium or plastic that we are recycling through this particular scheme, we are saving at least as much carbon emissions from the incineration and from having to extract new resources from the environment to create a new tonne of aluminium cans or plastic bottles. So, in terms of carbon emission savings, in terms of protection of natural resources, there’s a huge benefit to achieve the highest level of return on beverage containers.

Daniel Martin: Thank you to our listener for sending that across, and thank you, Remi for bringing us and reminding us of that important point as well.

Remi Cesaro is Founder and Executive Director of Zero Waste City. It’s a consulting business specialising in waste reduction for commercial and industrial properties. I’m Daniel Martin. It’s been our Singapore Today top story.